Kjeldsen skrev: Analogical: Din henvisning til test af rør stammer fra en side der henvender sig primært til guitarister. Testen er baseret på lytteerfaring på et guitar setup!

Overdrive er da noget med at overdrive ?  
Så er tråden vel nået et forudsigeligt stadie.

__________________
Blondine-energi løser verdens problemer!

Det var ikke pointen. Pointen er at rørbaseret indspilning ikke kun hører fortiden til. Der produceres oven i købet nye rørmixere. Jeg er ganske enig i at det ikke er det mest udbredte. Indlægget skulle ikke vise hvor langt transistorerne er nået, men blot give en vinkel til rør vs. transistor.

Hvori ligger det vildledende?

Kjeldsen skrev: Det var ikke pointen. Pointen er at rørbaseret indspilning ikke kun hører fortiden til. Der produceres oven i købet nye rørmixere. Jeg er ganske enig i at det ikke er det mest udbredte. Indlægget skulle ikke vise hvor langt transistorerne er nået, men blot give en vinkel til rør vs. transistor. Hvori ligger det vildledende?

Kun hvis man læser dit indlæg uden at opdage at informationerne er fra 1972.

Det er vel tænkeligt at noget af det kan bruges, men det er bestemt meget væsentligt at kende alderen på informationerne. (Derfor var det fremhævet)

__________________
Blondine-energi løser verdens problemer!

Kjeldsen skrev: Analogical: Din henvisning til test af rør stammer fra en side der henvender sig primært til guitarister. Testen er baseret på lytteerfaring på et guitar setup!

Nuvel..der var blot tale om et eksempel på test.Det er rigtigt at rør bruges i både guitar og hifi...men de rør, der var i testen er så afgjort mere end velegnede til hifi. Mullard røret er fremragende..ogtelefunken ligeså.Så det gør ingen forskel..som eksempel 

Kan vi ikke snart få en faktuel drejning.
Hvad med to hovedpunkter:

1. Metaxas som iøvrigt laver transistorgrej ser ud til at kende fordelene ved rørforstærkere og ditto begrænsninger ved transistor. Dvs. en teknisk indsigt
2. Den anden vinkel er den subjektive oplevelse af af lytte til rørbaseret grej. Dvs. modtagerens oplevelse af lyden.

Mit ydmyge bidrag:

Der hvor jeg har størst erfaring med rør er som lydteknikker (live). En god rørbaseret forforstærker (uagtet den efterfølgende smides i en trasistoriseret mixer) har en IMO mere naturlig klang. Jeg oplever det ved at jeg ikke behøver dreje i tonekontrollerne for at få en fyldig klang. Der er på samme tid mere hul igennem og en varmere/naturligere klang. En anden positiv gevinst er, at jeg ikke bliver lyttetræt af en god rørforforstærker.

En god transistor forforstærker kan komme tæt på, men jeg har endnu ikke oplevet det helt på niveau med rør.

I hifi-sammenhænge er min rørerfaring begrænset og ikke med positiv udfald til rørene.

Håber vi kan få både facts og reelle oplevelser/erfaringer på bordet.

men kjeldsen..her er så et bedre eksempel :

ECC83,12AX7 Test Report  from Watford Valves in the U.K.

OBJECT OF THE TEST
To establish the best sounding ECC83/12AX7 of both New Old Stock and current production variety.

EQUIPMENT USED
The amplifiers used were: 70 's Fender twin reverb fitted with J.B.L's. A 70's Fender twin reverb fitted with
original Fender blue back speakers. A Mesa/Boogie mark 4 combo. Marshall 100 super lead into 4 x 12 cab.
Fender Princeton reverb 2. Vox AC10 with Elac speakers.  Guitars used where a 1973 Fender Stratocaster,
1980 Yamaha SA 2000S semi acoustic and a 1980 Gibson Les Paul Standard.

Audio tests were carried out using a Croft Micro Audiophile pre amp.  A Leak stereo 20 power amp trough
Tannoy 15' super reds. The source was Thorens TD150 Grace & Supex & A.R. Legend, Linn arm & Denon
Cartridge.

The tests were carried out to provide in real working and playing situations how the valves performed. The
test rig use to select the valves prior to evaluation was our own custom designed unit click here for picture.
Valves were selected for low microphony, low noise and gain rated Click for more info
Mullard ECC83 & Mullard M8137 Box anode, R.C.A 7025 & Telefunken ECC83 Where used as the
reference.

The test reports have been updated on 1st September 2000. We used the same equipment with the
addition of a Fender pro junior and the same reference valves for evaluation. All the valves tested where
selected to the same specification as our original test samples. The new valves tested where, The French
Mazda 12AX7 military grey plates, The French Mazda 12AX7 military silver plates, The Tesla N.O.S
E83CC/ECC803S Telefunken replica new old stock valves. The only new current production item being the
Sovtek 12AX7LPS.

ECC83/12AX7LPS SOVTEK
The new Sovtek 12AX7LPS valve is now in full scale production in Russia.  The valve is of medium to high
gain and has a special spiral filament. This filament greatly reduces hum when operated in amplifiers with
AC heaters. This is certainly the best 12AX7 that Sovtek have come up with. On the plus side in audio you
get more detail in the treble register. The valve is open and has very balanced presentation and importantly
the valve has life and sparkle not muddy like the WA or WB. Over long periods the valve was easy on the
ear again unlike the other Sovteks we have listened too. Bass response was fine, not as deep or thundering
as the Mullard , Brimar or JJ/tesla but one could easily pick out the bass line.   The minus points were on
vocals as they were not as refined as the new old stock tubes.

In Guitar amps we noticed that the level of microphonics were higher than the WB, This would be also be
consistent with the higher gain of the tube. The valve gave a bright and clean sound but not as sharpe as
the G.E. When the valve distorted it retained it's control and sounded sweet. Overall this is a very good
sounding valve that provided a good choice for audio or guitar.

ECC83/12AX7 MAZDA GREY PLATE
A French military valve that is noted for it's Mullard Tone. In audio application these valves were detailed ,
lively and very balanced. Plenty of bass slam in these babies.  In guitar amps these rocked. The valves are
very high gain, yes more gain than the famous Mullard ECC83. The distorted tone was rich and fat . Treble
response was clear even when really distorted. The valves were supremely quiet, however due to the
immense gain special selected version would be needed if your amp has a cascading gain pre amp section.

ECC83/12AX7 MAZDA SILVER ANODE
A French military valve with special silver plates made for special application military use.
In audio amps the valve displayed a slight treble forwardness. This gave the impression of less bottom end
thump when compared to the Mazda grey plates. A Fantastic detailed performer the sound stage was big .
The valve was again very quiet which shows how well made they are. The gain on these valves are
somewhat less than the grey plates but still in the medium to high gain bracket.

This valve was amazing in Fenders. That sweet rich out of phase sound with a strat just jumped out of the
speakers. The valve was more percussive than the siemens E83CC and with a sweet alnico speaker the
guitar sung. It's compression was quite late giving bags of clean headroom. For that sweet Fender tone
these have no equal.

ECC83/E83CC/ECC803S TESLA
This valve was the Czech replica of the famous Telefunken ECC803S. The valve has the large "A" frame
getter and thick grade glass which eliminates microphony. The valve also retains the gold pins and plate
structure of the Telefunken. This valve is not the same as the new JJ/Tesla E83CC. The first thing that
strikes you is that it is very quiet and the valve displayed no microphonics whatsoever. Beautiful on female
vocal as it has a super midband, very fast and dynamic. We dug out our private stash of real Telefunken
ECC803S and noticed that these were identical in every way including the sound ( except for the diamond
mark). The valve is not as high gain as the Mazda Grey or the RFT. Sonically this was excellent. Rich bottom
end silky smooth treble and nice balanced.

In Guitar amps the sound stage was big, no rings, no pops just your guitar. This valve seemed very neutral
not colouring the sound in any way. When pushed into distortion the valve sounded rich with super late
compression. This valve is super it just does what it is supposed to do nothing more nothing less.

ECC83/12AX7WA SOVTEK
Low to medium gain double triode with the same sound quality and less gain than the WB. When distorted
did not have the detail or balance of n.o.s valves. The valve seemed to be pushing everything through the
mid band. When pushed hard the sound compressed very early. Good for general repairs.

ECC83/12AX7WB SOVTEK
Low to medium gain double triode with low microphonics. Clear bright sound earlier distortion than WA. The
valve lacked clarity and definition of new old stock valves. Same sound as WA however far better than the
Chinese 12AX7. No snap crackle and pop.

ECC83/12AX7WB SILVER ANODE SOVTEK
This is the early silver anode WB as used by Groove tubes. Many of our customers tell us these have a
better sound than the current production type. We found that they sounded identical to the current WB but
we found generally that they had higher gain than the modern item. This resulted in the distortion happening
a little earlier, therefore we found these to be a good choice for guitarist on a budget.

ECC83/12AX7 Sylvania
Classic American valve which was fitted by all the great 60's amplifier companies such as Ampeg, Fender &
Gibson. This valve produces a rich warm sound with excellent balance. When distorted produces a fat
sound with plenty of drive without loss in top end clarity. In the Fender amps the valve produced a clean
bright response which was great for finger picking. Single coils sounded full with no harshness and plenty of
detail. In the Boogie a sweet clean sound was easily attained which was crisp and clear. Once you rocked
the Boogie the Sylvania valves produced a classic rock sound with a little mid forwardness which I liked. In
the Boogie we found that due to the high gain nature of the amp low microphony selected valves produced
the best results. Early 1960's production ideal choice for all vintage Fenders.

ECC83/12AX7WA Philips-JAN
American military low noise valve made in the famous Sylvania plant in emporium. It retains the classic warm
solid sound of the early Sylvania but has less drive. This proved useful in the Boogie as the lower gain of
the valve gave less microphonics. Mid range was very musical with all the clarity of the Sylvania.the bottom
end was superb and in comparison to the Sylvania sounded a little tighter and better defined which was
welcomed in the Marshall amps. The bass was not as deep as the Mullard but the Philips did have that
instant British style tone. In the Fender amps all the tone that you would expect was there. This is a superb
valve and an instant upgrade for all modern amps.

ECC83/12AX7WA G.E-JAN
This is a rugged American military spec valve of immense quality. This is the same valve that was standard
in 70's Fenders. The G.E valve is famous for it's big crisp sound stage and bright top end response which
breathes life into Fenders. This valve really supplied that authentic Fender twang. The valve was brighter
than the other American valves and also worked really well in the vox by giving it a clearer top end
response. When the valve distorts it has a rich harmonic feel and chime. Even under heavy Boogie
distortion the bass and mid range detail was also superb. Thoroughly recommended.

ECC83/Mullard
The legendary British valve which is the most sought after ECC83/12ax7 type of all time. The key is the way
the valve distorts. It reproduces exactly what is driven into it with great musicality. It combines smooth drive
with balanced low microphonics. The Mullard reproduces every subtle detail with a rich sound stage. When
overdriven the valve had a 3 d effect which made the valve really sing. This sounded amazing in the Boogie.
The noise level even at full saturation were very low. The bass response has great kick without loss of
definition. We came to the conclusion that this was going to be a hard act to follow.

ECC83/M8137 Mullard BOX ANODE
The special military grade Mullard is one of the lowest noise and distortion types ever built with a superb box
style anode plate. Raved about by vacuum tube valley and quite rightly so. The sound stage is detailed and
relaxed and it handles complex music with ease. If you want the best audio valve then this is it as it has less
distortion than the standard ECC83 Mullard. The mid band is superb with vocal rich and clear. Now very rare
and sought after. For audio, stamps on the Telefunken ECC83 and leaves it for dead.

ECC83/E83CC Siemens
Original German valve with extra mica support at the top of the valve and ribbed anode plate. Well balanced
with large sound stage with low distortion. Relaxed and very detailed. The valve had a real percussive ability
which was great for Fender style picking. Bass & treble where in correct proportion. The valve also had a
superb mid band response which was not as detailed as the Mullard but crisper than the U.S valves. Superb
in audio applications on acoustic or Spanish guitar as this gave the impression that the guitar was being
played in the same room. Super in the noise department and was as quiet as the box anode Mullard. This
valve can be highly recommended for audio or guitar.

ECC83/TELEFUNKEN
The classic German low noise ECC83 which provided a superb rich sound stage. The valve was electrically
well balanced but did not have mid range honk or bite of the Mullard ECC83. The midrange detail of the
m8137 also left the tele in the shade when we used it in an audio test. The valve shares all the Siemens
strong points and does everything exceptionally well. Clarity is perfect with no fuzz or bass distortion. This is
an all-time classic valve and has a very high regard in audio circles.

ECC83/R.F.T
German valve that I have seen also branded Brimar, Siemens & Telefunken. This tube was also used for a
long period by Marshall. The valve has a rich bass response with great drive. Very low in microphonics due
to thick glass envelope. The valve also distorts earlier than the U.S.A types. The valve does show less treble
response than the U.S.A types which lends the valve to be used in a more rock style set up. The rich
harmonic distortion make this a great valve in Marshall. Boogie and Vox amps. It showed rich sustain with
plenty of bass crunch. Mid range was clear and detailed. Defiantly for the rockers and blues players.

ECC83/CV4004 Brimar
British military spec with half flange anode. Instant British rock sound. Exceptional balance and sound
staging with great drive. Has not good the rich harmonic distortion or the unique 3d effect of the Mullard and
under full distortion does not appear to have the same bite. The presentation is relaxed and musical which
all the new ECC83 types do not match. It does everything it should do excellently.

ECC83/TUNGSRAM
Hungarian valve which is identical in construction to the Mullard. It has additional internal supports which
greatly reduces microphonics. Good balance with clean top end response. The valve sounded vibrant in the
Fenders and was low in noise. This is very important in old Marshall if you want to make the amp cut through
by increasing the presence control setting without all that hiss. The Tungstram does need around 48 hours
run in to get the best out of it. The valve had more headroom than the R.F.T. and was as quiet as the
Mullards.

ECC83/12AX7 CHINESE
This valve tended to be fitted by all the major amp manufactures when it was in production. On the plus side
the valves have good gain and low microphonics, which suited the Boogie and the Marshall amps . The
drawback is its complete lack of tone. This gave the wasp in a jam jar trade mark sounds. The treble was
fizzy and the bass response gave a hazy distortion. The music sounded like a vale was placed in front of the
speaker. The valves also after small amounts of gigging tended to sound harsh and brittle. Therefore we do
not recommend this type.  (The latest Chinese 12AX7C made on new tooling is currently under test and has
shown some positive results at Westwood Music.)

ECC83/E.I YUGOSLAVIA
This valve closely resembles the Telefunken ECC83 due to its' smooth anode plate design. This , however
is where the comparison ends as the valve sounds nothing like the tele. The valve is far too microphonic for
use in guitar amps. We have even tried so called selected versions from other dealers and even Boogie
branded items all of which are in our opinion unusable except as phase splitters. The valve does have
plenty of gain and have a rich rock sound. The downside is that even ones which are low in microphonics
seem to go microphonic within a few months. Therefore we don't recommend its' use in guitar amplifiers.

ECC83/E83CC JJ TESLA
We re-evaluated this valve as early production items seemed to produce excessive hum which rendered
them useless. The valves gain characteristics place it in the medium to high gain range. The bottom end
response is clean and clear. The valve has a solid structure which makes it free from adverse microphonics.
Tonally these are great. The mid range has a slight blurring which seems to increase the harder you push it.
Great for rock sounds but not ideal for clean. The top end is sweet clear and has nice sustain.

ECC83/5751 G.E.-JAN
This is a low gain valve which produced all the classic G.E sound stage and performance as described with
the 12AX7WA. The valve was very low in distortion and very difficult to clip. This is an excellent valve for use
in Fenders or any clean stage application. The sound was bright and vibrant with plenty of detail. The valve
was very well balanced indeed it was very easy to get identically matched valves. This valve is far better
than any currently produced valve for clean pure Fender style twang.


ECC83,12AX7 Test Conclusion

The first thing I will say is that under these tests the unanimous conclusion was that the new old stock valves
offer better sound quality than the current production types. The second thing is that tonality is in the ears
of the listener and you may find that a current production item has exactly what you are looking for. So try as
many valves as you can until you find the sound you are looking for.

Guitar valves
The Mullard ECC83 was the clear winner as its own superb character shone through. Detail, sustain and
perfect balance where second to none but what won the day was its' superb 3 d distortion character which
not even the Mazda grey plate could match.

The runner up was a very close race. The RFT had a great rock tone and Mullard style gain. The valve
could be made to distort very easily and was really at home in the Marshall and Boogie amps. This is ideal
for the rock player as bass crunch is there in abundance. The Tungstram was also close. This valve had
detail, balance and large sound staging. this was a good all round valve with less balls than the Mullard or
the R.F.T. The R.F.T & Tungstram are exceptional valves and will work well in any situation.

The Siemens E83CC was the runner up in our last test report up by virtue of its percussive nature in the top
register. Some people thought this was due to its treble forwardness. The silver anode Mazda was definitely
better for finger picking as it seemed to jump out of the Fender amp and demand attention. The Siemens
still retains that position as it was a better balanced valve for audio use.

The Tesla E83CC/ECC803S was the best all rounder as it is very well made and it will let the music sing
through with no additions. The valve had detail, balance and finesse. The valve is are rare as the
Telefunken and for use in valve microphones is a dream as super low noise.

The Mazda 12AX7 grey plate are Mullards on hyper drive. Mass gain, this is the most powerful valve in terms
of output we have ever measured. It is a great rock valve but just does not have the Mullards unique
distortion character or freedom from microphonics. Superb in vintage amps were you need a little more bite.

The G.E where considered to the most American sounding due to its bright nature. I love the sound stage
and crisp distortion of this valve and it is certainly a great all round valve with low microphony.

The Sylvania and Philips valves all showed a similar sound quality. The Sylvania valves where of higher gain
and higher drive than the Philips. This would led to if the valves where unselected to microphony in critical
driver positions. The Philips seemed to be tighter in the bass area but retains the classic mid band warmth.
This I love and I must say it really sounds good in Fender amp.

The Brimar CV4004 is a classic British sounding valve. Refined and well balanced and does every thing it
should very well. The valve is not aggressive as the Mullard, G.E. or the R.F.T.

The current production items in terms or pure sound quality the Tesla JJ and the New Sovtek 12AX7 LPS
are top of the bunch. The E.I valves also sound good but are just so appalling in the microphony department
that in our opinion it is unusable in guitar amp. Many dealers advertise these as tested and low noise. They
may be low noise compared to each other but I have never found any that are true low noise low microphony
when compared to a Mullard, Siemens, Telefunken & Brimar.

The current Tesla JJ valves are higher gain than the early production years and are used heavily by Groove
tubes & Mesa Boogie. The valve generally has a good rich sound with a forward presentation. When pushed
really hard the valve can sound a little rough around the edges. The valve has less top end sparkle than
some of the new old stock tubes but has plenty of bite. The audio boys may look for a brighter top but this is
the best sounding current production ECC83/12AX7 for rock guitar around.

The Sovtek valves are certainly low on microphonics. This is why they are used by more o.e.m than any
other valve. The WB and LPS are the best for guitar. The LPS seems to be cleaner and sharper than the
other Sovteks. What you lose in low microphonics you get back double in terms of gain. This provides more
crunch , more dive and more musical than any other Sovtek before.

The Sovteks do tend to suffer from a little mid range fuzz when pushed and lack the mid range detail of
N.O.S valves. The LPS goes a long way to redress the balance. They offer exception valve for money and
are available in quantity.

og til sidst den interessant del af konklusionen

Audio valves
Here we are looking for the ultimate detail, fast dynamics and musical involvement. One valve has it all.

The winner is the Mullard M8137 box anode. This simply sounded more involving and musical than the
Telefunken or the Siemens. The Mullard ECC83 was also close and is a testament to how well made the
Mullards are.

The Mullard just had the most detailed mid band with close mic work easily heard through the speakers. The
German valves were all very neutral as was the Tesla E83CC/ECC803S New old stock. The R.F.T just
lacking the top end richness and sharpness and bottom end clarity of its' West German cousins. The M8137
showed less distortion than The Mullard ECC83. Both these valves had that bit more detail in the midrange
which makes them stand out from the pack.

Two dark horses both of which made late claims to get into the ratings.

The G.E 5751 is simply a superb valve which showed all the G.E character but with lower distortion levels
than the G.E 12AX7.

This I feel is next audio valve which a few years from now will get more and more sought after and more
expensive. The valve was specially balanced for identical triode section and has a lower amplification factor
(70 mu) when compared to a ECC83/12AX7 (100 mu). The valve had a musical and pleasing sound.

The Mazda grey anode and silver anode are fantastic sounding audio valves. The silver plate is a more
musical more detailed G.E type sound. It also seems to handle any music with authority. The grey plate is
The Mullard ECC83 before they came of age.  Not Quite the Mullard but very close.

The Tungstram is a superbly rich and musical valve . The valve is low noise and has a very sweet treble.
Which is full of depth and definition.

The simple rule to remember is that all the valves do sound different and it may the least expensive valve
that meets your needs. Once you have found your preference always get some spares because in life three
things are certain, death, taxes and N.O.S valves will dry up.

Se nu begynder jeg faktisk at blive inspireret. Dog vil dine egne hands on erfaringer med udstyr, have større interesse.

lidt mere internet stuff:

http://hktubeaudio.homestead.com/files/12AX7.html

citat herfra:

And the result? Well, I think this time we have a clear winner, which is the Mullard 10M Master Series 12AX7. Perhaps a short history about this tube first. The 10M Series is a special selected type of , I believe, early 70’s Mullard, which is "aged", tested and then plated its pins with gold. The structure of the 10M 12AX7 is the same as the Mullard yellow label short plate 12AX7. But the sound is so very different. Each of this tube is guaranteed for 10,000 hours of usage i.e. the name 10M. It is quite rare and the street price in Hong Kong should be around the same as the Telefunken 803S.

I think the 10M won by giving the most all-round sonic performance and, perhaps more importantly, the most musical sound of all. The 1^st runner-up, closely behind, is the famous Telefunken ECC803S, and this is the double getter support/clear glass version, which is generally believe to be the best version of all Telefunken 803S. This tube actually scored very high on most aspect, in particular the transience of music. But it lost out to the 10M in terms of musicality. What I feel is that the 803S tried so hard to get everything right and being the most "hifi" that it tend to communicate less of its music content compare to the 10M, which is simply more please to the ear.

Another noticeable performer, which came third overall, is the Mullard M8137. Like all M8137, it gives unbelievable bass and punch, and this particular version of M8137 is far smoother than all the other M8137 versions which make it so special.

Især bemærkningen og "bass and punch" gør jeg vil kigge mig lidt om efter kontruktioner med dette rør.

Kjeldsen skrev: Se nu begynder jeg faktisk at blive inspireret. Dog vil dine egne hands on erfaringer med udstyr, have større interesse. Foretrækker mullard røret samlet set.Særligt i bassen har det mere tyngde end telefunken.Telefunken er næsttevalg lidt mere internet stuff: http://hktubeaudio.homestead.com/files/12AX7.html citat herfra: And the result? Well, I think this time we have a clear winner, which is the Mullard 10M Master Series 12AX7. Perhaps a short history about this tube first. The 10M Series is a special selected type of , I believe, early 70’s Mullard, which is "aged", tested and then plated its pins with gold. The structure of the 10M 12AX7 is the same as the Mullard yellow label short plate 12AX7. But the sound is so very different. Each of this tube is guaranteed for 10,000 hours of usage i.e. the name 10M. It is quite rare and the street price in Hong Kong should be around the same as the Telefunken 803S. I think the 10M won by giving the most all-round sonic performance and, perhaps more importantly, the most musical sound of all. The 1st runner-up, closely behind, is the famous Telefunken ECC803S, and this is the double getter support/clear glass version, which is generally believe to be the best version of all Telefunken 803S. This tube actually scored very high on most aspect, in particular the transience of music. But it lost out to the 10M in terms of musicality. What I feel is that the 803S tried so hard to get everything right and being the most "hifi" that it tend to communicate less of its music content compare to the 10M, which is simply more please to the ear. Another noticeable performer, which came third overall, is the Mullard M8137. Like all M8137, it gives unbelievable bass and punch, and this particular version of M8137 is far smoother than all the other M8137 versions which make it so special. Især bemærkningen og "bass and punch" gør jeg vil kigge mig lidt om efter kontruktioner med dette rør.

skruerselv skrev: Rør kan nogle gode ting - transistorer kan også nogle gode ting og når kontruktørerne blander de 2 teknikker - lyder det forfærdeligt

Det er jeg ikke enig med dig i, Pathos klare det skide godt! læs denne artikkel fra stereophile.

og så har jeg en kammereat der har en new Classic One, den lyder super godt, dog ikke lige så godt som min Accuphase

__________________
Accuphase E-213
Accuphase DP-57
Audio Physic Spark
Mit Setup:   http://www.hifi4all.dk/forum/forum_p osts.asp?TID=35114&KW=Rees

Rees skrev: skruerselv skrev: Rør kan nogle gode ting - transistorer kan også nogle gode ting og når kontruktørerne blander de 2 teknikker - lyder det forfærdeligt Det er jeg ikke enig med dig i, Pathos klare det skide godt! læs denne artikkel fra stereophile. og så har jeg en kammereat der har en new Classic One, den lyder super godt, dog ikke lige så godt som min Accuphase

Rees..du skal forstå skruerselv's indslag mere som en reaktion imod min person,hvorfor jeg foreslår dig helt at se bort fra hans indslag

Analogical skrev: Rees skrev: skruerselv skrev: Rør kan nogle gode ting - transistorer kan også nogle gode ting og når kontruktørerne blander de 2 teknikker - lyder det forfærdeligt Det er jeg ikke enig med dig i, Pathos klare det skide godt! læs denne artikkel fra stereophile. og så har jeg en kammereat der har en new Classic One, den lyder super godt, dog ikke lige så godt som min Accuphase Rees..du skal forstå skruerselv's indslag mere som en reaktion imod min person,hvorfor jeg foreslår dig helt at se bort fra hans indslag

Netop dét indlæg fra skruerselv, var faktisk blot hans oprigtige mening, og vel kun en egentlig provokation hvis man er uenig med ham.

__________________
Blondine-energi løser verdens problemer!

Spencer skrev: Analogical skrev: Rees skrev: skruerselv skrev: Rør kan nogle gode ting - transistorer kan også nogle gode ting og når kontruktørerne blander de 2 teknikker - lyder det forfærdeligt Det er jeg ikke enig med dig i, Pathos klare det skide godt! læs denne artikkel fra stereophile. og så har jeg en kammereat der har en new Classic One, den lyder super godt, dog ikke lige så godt som min Accuphase Rees..du skal forstå skruerselv's indslag mere som en reaktion imod min person,hvorfor jeg foreslår dig helt at se bort fra hans indslag Netop dét indlæg fra skruerselv, var faktisk blot hans oprigtige mening, og vel kun en egentlig provokation hvis man er uenig med ham.

Muligvis..men han er ret sur på min person

Analogical skrev: Spencer skrev: Analogical skrev: Rees skrev: skruerselv skrev: Rør kan nogle gode ting - transistorer kan også nogle gode ting og når kontruktørerne blander de 2 teknikker - lyder det forfærdeligt Det er jeg ikke enig med dig i, Pathos klare det skide godt! læs denne artikkel fra stereophile. og så har jeg en kammereat der har en new Classic One, den lyder super godt, dog ikke lige så godt som min Accuphase Rees..du skal forstå skruerselv's indslag mere som en reaktion imod min person,hvorfor jeg foreslår dig helt at se bort fra hans indslag Netop dét indlæg fra skruerselv, var faktisk blot hans oprigtige mening, og vel kun en egentlig provokation hvis man er uenig med ham. Muligvis..men han er ret sur på min person

Så lad det dog ligge og kom videre i teksten - dette er bare endnu en tråd med 50% personfnidder!!

__________________
Watching "Full House" with the Olsen-twins feels like having a heart attack in slow motion!!

Jeg har hørt at rør er noget af det mest liniære hvis de bruges rigtig men det kniber måske lidt her.Så er det jo lige det med effekten her kniber det også lidt.Udgangstrafo er måske heller ikke en så god ide, skulle tro det tager noget af opløsningen og dynamikken.

__________________
Hilsen JRGW

Sandheden er ikke nødvendigvis det man syntes den burde være...
DIY Thel:http://www.hifi4all.dk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=62872

JRGW skrev: Jeg har hørt at rør er noget af det mest liniære hvis de bruges rigtig men det kniber måske lidt her.Så er det jo lige det med effekten her kniber det også lidt.Udgangstrafo er måske heller ikke en så god ide, skulle tro det tager noget af opløsningen og dynamikken.

En udganstraffo kan være en ganske god ting, selv for en transistor amp, og den tager bestemt ikke (nødvendigvis) dynamik. Men der er rigtig mange ting der skal gøres rigtigt for at den lyder godt og ikke går i mætning/frekvensbegrænsning når der skal leveres effekt. Rør forstærkere kan sagtens levere effekt det bliver tit bare dyrt og en lille triode med et par 300B rør kan af naturlige årsager ikke levere det store. Her hjælper det dog gevaldigt med en effektiv højtaler.

Mvh

Hej ville lige deltage lidt. Jeg skal ikke sige mig klog på andres hørelse og systemer iøvrigt. Jeg vil blot dele míne erfaringer. Jeg spiller selv på rør nu. En tamura 300b til top og en B.A.S. 50 watt til bunden. Det er selvsagt en nødvendighed med effektive højtalere for at være rigtig med på rørlyden. Jeg har rodet meget med hifi og prøvet en del forskelligt. Idet jeg spiller på Tad driver og horn har jeg en føsomhed på toppen på godt 110db og jeg har prøvet mange også dyre transistor forstærkere på dem og det snerer alle uden undtagelse (Af dem jeg har prøvet) i bunden spiller jeg på en Tad 1601B 15" bas med følsomhed på 97.5 db her er det ikke ligeså hørbart hvad angår sneren. Dog vil jeg sige at rør også i bunden giver en mere glat og musikalsk lyd uden at blive mudret (lige omvendt). Ja så vil jeg bare sige at det er dejligt at der er mange meninger det udvikler alt  

 

"Ethvert anlæg der vil kalde sig hi-end må nødvendigvis indeholde rørforstærkning" hævdes det indledningsvis af Analogical.

Det er da en påstand der er til at føle på, og jeg læser selvfølgelig videre i tråden for at blive, well, om ikke oplyst så dog lidt klogere på denne interessante vinkel på den evige polemik omkring hvordan vi opnår mest vellyd.

Nu 4 sider senere sidder jeg med en underlig tom fornemmelse i hovedet, thi ikke en eneste har så vidt jeg kan se ulejliget sig med at argumentere hverken for eller imod Analogicals påstand.Faktisk har han ikke engang selv forsøgt at løfte sløret for hvorfor hans påstand skulle være så indlysende.

Ohwell.......... jeg spiller bare videre gennem min SONY TA-N90ES og synes på helt uvidenskabelig og barnlig vis at jeg kan klare mig helt uden rør...

Jubelsange for dette eller hint rører mig ikke, saglige argumenter og forklaringer udbedes...

Med venlig hilsen                                                                                                                           John Kristensen

 

__________________

Kjeldsen skrev: Se nu begynder jeg faktisk at blive inspireret. Dog vil dine egne hands on erfaringer med udstyr, have større interesse. lidt mere internet stuff: http://hktubeaudio.homestead.com/files/12AX7.html citat herfra: And the result? Well, I think this time we have a clear winner, which is the Mullard 10M Master Series 12AX7. Perhaps a short history about this tube first. The 10M Series is a special selected type of , I believe, early 70’s Mullard, which is "aged", tested and then plated its pins with gold. The structure of the 10M 12AX7 is the same as the Mullard yellow label short plate 12AX7. But the sound is so very different. Each of this tube is guaranteed for 10,000 hours of usage i.e. the name 10M. It is quite rare and the street price in Hong Kong should be around the same as the Telefunken 803S. I think the 10M won by giving the most all-round sonic performance and, perhaps more importantly, the most musical sound of all. The 1st runner-up, closely behind, is the famous Telefunken ECC803S, and this is the double getter support/clear glass version, which is generally believe to be the best version of all Telefunken 803S. This tube actually scored very high on most aspect, in particular the transience of music. But it lost out to the 10M in terms of musicality. What I feel is that the 803S tried so hard to get everything right and being the most "hifi" that it tend to communicate less of its music content compare to the 10M, which is simply more please to the ear. Another noticeable performer, which came third overall, is the Mullard M8137. Like all M8137, it gives unbelievable bass and punch, and this particular version of M8137 is far smoother than all the other M8137 versions which make it so special. Især bemærkningen og "bass and punch" gør jeg vil kigge mig lidt om efter kontruktioner med dette rør.

For den, der gerne vil have mullard lyden til reduceret pris, er her et "nyt" rør, der 95% eftergør mullard :

Det nye gamle rør

Vi tester her Aspen Pittmans forsøg på at lave en moderne version af det legendariske Mullard 12AX7 rør.

For langt de fleste guitarister er rør ,bare noget der sidder i en guitarrør forstærker og som en gang imellem skal skiftes. Ind til teknikeren med den og vupti er man nogle penge fattigere, men der er kommet nye rør i. Meget få spørger når de køber en ny forstærker hvilke rør der sidder i. Og hvis de spørger får de sjældent en brugbart svar. Fordi Rør er vel rør. NEJ det er det ikke. Under arbejdet med Soundchecks rørforstærker projekt kom det til at stå lysende klart at rør absolut ikke bare er rør. Der er KÆMPE forskel på de forskellige mærker, årgange og modeller.
De rør vi tester her er dels en moderne version af konge røret Mullard 12AX7, som GrooveTubes har lavet en moderne version af, et originalt Mullard rør og et alm GT rør. 

Historien bag
Da radiorør virkelig blev brugt rundt omkring i de små hjem i både radioer, fjernsyn og andre ting, var der et naturligt marked for rør. Der blev produceret gode og mindre gode rør. En ting der aldrig har hersket tvivl om var at rør fra fabrikken Mullard altid var blandt de bedste man kunne få. Sådan er det stadigvæk. Idag er der bare det problem at Mullard ikke længere producerer rør så de gamle rør er blevet, som alt andet retro agtigt guitar grej, svære at få fat på og svine dyre. Aspen Pittman, er indehaver af GrooveTubes og lidt af en forstæker nørd. De der har læst hans bog "the Tubeamp book" (også anmeldt her på siden) vil vide hvad jeg mener. Han har haft en meget stor (og dyr) samling af gamle forstækere som han, har finansieret ved at være god til at udvælge rør og matche dem. Det er der som sådan ikke noget galt i, det er sådan der foregår, alle rør på markedet kommer fra nogle ganske få fabrikker, der producerer til alle. Fidusen er så at have nogle folk, der er gode til at lytte til rør og få dem til at matche dem ikke bare strøm og specifikations mææsigt, men også lydmæssigt. Da muligheden for at få sin egen fabrik opstod solgte han en stor del af sin forstærker samling. Det skete da han fandt en gammel og forlængst lukket General Electric fabrik , der engang for mange år siden producerede rør. Den stod mere eller mindre uberørt hen og Pittman købte fabrikken og begyndte efter nogen tids oprydning, renovering at producere rør på den gamle fabrik. Man startede med at producere det rør vi skal teste her 12AX7 røret efter de gamle Mullard rør og man producerede et udgangs rør af EL34 typen. Senere kommer der en EL84 model.
 
Hvordan lyder det så.
Da vi skulle teste dette rør lavede vi en A,B,C test. Således at vi først hørte på et moderne 12AX7 rør fra Groove Tubes også lyttede vi til et gammelt originalt Mullard rør (tak for lån til Søren Alwan) og så lyttede vi til det nye GT12AX7M rør.
Testen blev lavet på en Tubeamp med de samme indstillinger og guitaren der blev brugt var Søren Alwans Hendrix Strat fra gamle dage med endnu ældre mikrofoner.
Det var vigtigt at indstillingerne på både forstærker og guitar var nøvagtigt de samme hele vejen igennem.
Testen forgik ved at der blev spillet det samme rif om og om igen, så man fik fornemmelsen af hvordan de forskellige rør lød.
Forskellen mellem det gamle original rør og et alm 12AX7 rør er enorm. Der kommer en detaljerigdom i lyden som jeg aldrig har hørt før. Røret giver en stor fed varm og fyldig lyd, der for mig er indbegrebet af rørlyd. Det almindelig rør, som vi før syntes lød fedt, blev meget koldt transperant og ligegyldigt at lytte til, medens det gamle rør fra Mullard leverede varmen. Det knækker flot når man spiller med overdrive og både mellemtonen og toppen er godt defineret og der er godt greb om bassen.
Det sjove er at det gamle rør rent faktisk også støjer mindre end de moderne rør. Både den alm støj og den støj der opstår når røret kommer til at virke som en slags antenne(og man modtager russisk radio) var klart mindre på det gamle Mullard rør end på det nye alm. rør.
En af de store forskelle på det Gamle Mullard rør og det alm G rør var evnen til at binde hele tonespektret sammen. Det alm GT rør var dominerende i bas og top men uden en sammenhæng i mellemtone lejet, og i det hele taget var det alm rør mege skarp og skærende at lytte på, medens det originale Mullard rør var blødt pg behageligt med masser af krop og fylde, som en god flaske rødvin kontra en af dem man får når man køber 6 flasker for en hund.
Da vi havde fået en fornemmelse af lyden af de to første rør skiftede vi til det nye 12AX7M rør. og ligheden med det originale Mullard rør var slående.
Forskellen mellem et alm 12AX7 og så GT 12AX7M er næsten lige så stor som forksllen var på Mullard og et alm rør. Men lydmæssigt ligger GT12AX7M så tæt op af originalen at det er marginalt hvor forskelllen er. Det fede ved det nye rør er at det kan få den samme sammenhæng i hele spektret som det gamle originale rør og at det ikke bliver anstrengende at lytte til. Det var ikke nær så skærende som det alm rør.
Vi prøvede for sammenligningens skyld at skifte til et Telefunken rør, som blandt hifi folk er det mest skattede rør der findes, men igen lød det ikke tilnærmelses vist så godt som hverken det opriginale Mullard og det nye GT 12AX7M.
 
Konklusionen
Med GT 12AX7M har det faktisk lykkedes for Aspen Pittman og hans folk, at lave et vellydende og troværdigt rør, der til fulde lever op til den målsætning om at lave et rør der lå så tæt på det gamle Mullard rør som overhovedet muligt.
Med GT12AX7M har man et godt alternativ til div auktions sider verden over hvor gamle rør sælges til meget høje priser.
GT12AX7M røret er heller ikke gratis, men det er stadigvæk langt billigere end hvad man kommer til at betale for de gamle original rør. Hvis man vil forbedre lyden på sin forstærker er GT12AX7M et godt sted at starte og forskellen vil være markant fra et hvilket som helst andet alm nyproduceret rør.

Røret koster 295 kr

Hephaistos skrev:  ikke en eneste har så vidt jeg kan se ulejliget sig med at argumentere hverken for eller imod Analogicals påstand.

Når mange ikke vil gå ind i en konkret diskussion, har det nok noget at gøre med at Analogical ikke vil fortælle hvad han har af anlæg.

Der skal være en form for ligeværdighed, og konkret erfaring, for at fastholde interessen for et emne.

Hvorfor skulle vi fortælle hvad vi har, og få at vide at det er billigt 'midianlæg', og være ude af stand til at vurdere noget på et hemmeligt anlæg ?

Mønsteret kan ikke brydes, desværre. Analogical vil ikke dele ud af erfaringer med sit eget anlæg.
Som sådan burde det diskvalificere til at være tilmeldt et forum, hvor man ikke vil give lige så meget som man får.

__________________
Blondine-energi løser verdens problemer!