Min makker har en Dynavox TPR 2



Han søger et nyt rør til den, som gerne må have en mere varm karakteristik, han søger noget mere analog, blød og lækker lyd
med glød. Han spurgte jo selvfølgelig mig til råds, men jeg må nok indrømme at rør ikke er min stærke side, så hvis der er
nogle som ligger inde med et forslag til hvad hans næste rør kunne være, ville det være fedt.

Jeg har fået anbefalet et "ECC82 / 12AU7" af en anden bekendt. Hvad siger i?

Han har selv kig på dette: http://pyndtshop.dk/product_reviews_info.php?products_id=242 &reviews_id=21 - nogle som har
prøvet det?

12AU7 er typebetegnelsen i USA, i Europa hed det ECC82. Mange producenter producerede 12AU7, og de kan lyde endog meget forskelligt. Det
kommer dog helt an på den specifikke konstruktion de anvendes i. Men altså generelt er rør fra Mullard kendt for at være "rør-lydende", altså som
din makker efterspørger. Find nogle Mullard der er så gamle som muligt, de lyder bedst. Dvs. produceret engang i '50erne.

Hej

Prøv også rør fra telefunken, super lyd på alle måder.

 

mvh

Per

eggers skrev: 12AU7 er typebetegnelsen i USA, i Europa hed det ECC82. Mange producenter producerede 12AU7, og de kan lyde endog meget forskelligt. Det kommer dog helt an på den specifikke konstruktion de anvendes i. Men altså generelt er rør fra Mullard kendt for at være "rør-lydende", altså som din makker efterspørger. Find nogle Mullard der er så gamle som muligt, de lyder bedst. Dvs. produceret engang i '50erne.

Kan I finde nogel "ægte" varer af disse gamle rør, er det nok noget af det bedste. Men pas på, der sælges meget, som ikke er, hvad det giver sig ud for.

Men ellers velkommen til en ny og spændende hobby: "Tube Rolling". Spændende, sjov og uforudsigeligt - det er utroligt, som udskiftning af et enkelt komponent kan påvirke hele lydbilledet. Her kan man virkeligt få nogle spændende oplevelser, desuden er selve "jagten" på nye(gamle) rør også en hobby i sig selv.

Kan kun støtte de hidtidige indlæg - Mullard/Philips mv- producerede rør vil sikkert bevæge sig i den ønskede retning.

Om Telefunken så egner sig til "blød og lækker lyd - med glød" er så nok en anden ting. De er efter min mening fantstisk flot lydende, men er dog kendte for at lyde slankere og mere "lyst" end Mullard/Philips-familiens rør.

Philips/Mullard'erne er generelt kendte for at have en lidt varmere klang med en større og mere fyldig bund -

Sjovt - når jeg ser sådan et apparat, hvor der er lavet et lille kighul til røret (så vi også kan se det) - så farer der altid en djævel i mig. (Jeg kender ikke det pågældende apparat og derfor udtaler jeg mig generelt).

Jeg har tidligere oplevet at der var sat et pænt glødende rør i hullet og ved nærmere undersøgelsde viste det sig, at det var et rør, hvor kun gløden fik lidt spænding - dette var så bakket op af en orange neonlampe lige bag røret - hvorefter der var lavet et halvrundt spejlagtigt arrangement bag hele herligheden, og så var der ellers rør-fest!

Håber, da at dette rør har en elektrisk/lydmæssig funktion, så evt., svagtseende også ville kunne få noget ud af det.

Vh

Freddy

Prøv at brug denne vejledning.  In most circuits it is used as a class A amplifier per triode section. This tube has been, and still is, widely used in the preamplifier stages of high fidelity audio equipment, musical instrument amps, public address equipment, and broadcast equipment. It was used in so many different types of equipment that the vintage versions of this tube are still available without too much searching. Like their cousin, the 12AX7, the premium USA and West European brands are being hunted to extinction, but there are still bargains to be had in other vintage USA brands. Here is the list of what is available in the 12AU7 family:

12AU7 / 12AU7A: The common USA version of this tube. The 12AU7 can only be used in parallel filament circuits. Like the 12AX7, this is not a hassle since virtually all hi-fi tube amps are of the parallel filament design. RCA, GE, and Sylvania actually made most of these tubes, regardless of brand on the label. The early RCA version has ribbed flat black plates with a top getter and a white label. Still available, and still a bargain since everyone wants the "cleartops": 1960s versions that have greyplates and the getter on the side, making the top clear. These "cleartops" are currently the hottest selling 12AU7, and are still a great buy at current prices. Watch this tube....I predict in 5 years it will be as hard to find as the Telefunken smoothplate, and just as expensive! The 1970s new logo version (and the late 1940s-1950s version with the white label) of the RCA 12AU7 has greyplates and a top getter. This greyplate RCA is about the best bargain you can get in a vintage RCA 12AU7. The GE versions pretty much always used greyplates and a top getter for this tube. The numbers are etched into the glass with a pattern of dots below the number. Don't miss trying the "organ stock" 12AU7 tubes that were sold to organ manufacturers. These sweet tubes were screened for audio use in organs, and have the organ brand on the label. Usually sold at bargain prices because of the re-branded label, the RCA cleartop and Raytheon blackplate versions are a great find! Tung Sol made an early "blackglass" version in the late 1940s, which hides the inside of the tube from view, and is very rare; later Tung Sol 12AU7 tubes look like early RCA greyplates inside. All of these vintage tubes used a chalky label paint, and often the tube label is smeared or partially rubbed off. This does not indicate use or poor quality. Rather, it is an indication of a genuine vintage tube, and all of these are excellent quality.

ECC82: This is the European version of the 12AU7, and is identical to it. The brands in demand are Telefunken, Amperex, and Mullard. Telefunken tubes have a diamond shape molded into the bottom of the glass. Both ribbed plate and the more famous smoothplate types are available, just like the 12AX7, but are being hunted down and soon may be an endangered species. Amperex and Mullard have tiny date codes etched in the glass near the bottom of the tube. The most popular Amperex are the Holland made Bugle Boy series, with the tiny cartoon tube blowing a bugle on the label. They later went to just a white label that said "Amperex", and then after that used the orange label with the world logo. The earlier Mullard tubes had the word "Mullard" inside of a shield logo, later versions said "IEC Mullard". Watch for the very rare long plate versions from the 1950s available in most European brands. These had narrow plates that were about 3mm longer than the 1960s and later versions. The earliest had square shape top getter elements, late longplates have a halo top getter. Even rarer are the Mullard and Amperex made CV491 longplate square getter tubes, made only for the military. Most of these early Mullard tubes can be spotted not only by the date codes and longplates, but by the distinctive "wrinkle" glass, where the surface of the glass tube is not smooth but rather has tiny wrinkles or sometimes an eggshell texture. These are all tubes of unequalled quality, and are worth the high prices they are commanding these days. Even used ones will blow away any of the trashy tubes in production today. Vintage versions again used the chalky paint, and frequently the labels on any of these tubes are usually smeared.

CV491:A military specification version of the ECC82. These are usually found in Mullard or Brimar versions, but I have seen Siemens as well, and some made by Amperex. This tube was made into the 1990s so careful selection needs to be made. The best are the Mullard and Amperex longplates from the 1950s, which look identical to the longplate ECC82. Ei Yugoslavia made a nice smoothplate version into the late 1980s which sounds surprisingly good despite it's late vintage "East Europe" stigma attached to it. Overall, these are a step up from the standard ECC82 tubes, since they have military specs.

5814: This is a military spec tube. Sometimes the vintage GE versions may be labelled JG-12AU7WA in white and have 5814 etched into the glass. These are all low microphonic thanks to their rigid mica supports. Older versions have a third mica spacer near the top. These "triple mica" versions are in great demand today. The broadcast versions of this tube are the GE 5-star, and the RCA Command series. These vintage tubes have just started to become a hot item, as NOS stocks of the West Europe types become harder to find. These tubes can withstand many on-off cycles and mechanical shock without a problem.

6189: This can be both a military spec tube and a premium industrial tube. Often, the military versions will be marked 12AU7WA in addition to having 6189 etched in the glass. The older vintage of these tubes are usually blackplate with the extra "triple mica" spacer at the top. GE made this in their 5-star line for broadcast. The RCA military 6189 is gold lettered 12AU7WA, has blackplates, and extra support rods. These are excellent step up tubes in the 12AU7 family, when you can find them!

5963: This is a nice industrial type which is nearly identical to the standard 12AU7. RCA made a nice blackplate version of this tube, Sylvania has a gold pin version, and GE has it in their 5-star broadcast line. The plate voltage rating is a little lower than for a 12AU7, but for most applications, it will work fine. It has a rugged cathode and should be long lived, similar to the 5814. Watch this tube, as it is plentiful now and prices are low. As audiophiles discover it, the rush will be on!

6680: Motorola and GE are the brands you find most often with this tube, but RCA made a nice cleartop version for a very short time. It is identical to the 12AU7, but has the added benefit of being able to withstand variations in filament voltage without affecting it's output. This tube was designed originally for two-way mobile radio use. It makes a fine hi-fi 12AU7 tube as well. Never as plentiful as other types, this tube is rather scarce today.

ECC802: This is a premium version of the European ECC82, with matched triode sections. These are very rare in the USA, and often command very high prices.

E80CC:This unusual European tube is basically an industrial type 6085. However, it's specs are similar enough to a 12AU7 that audiophiles are grabbing them up while the prices are still reasonable. The heater life is rated at 10,000 hours, and some have gold pins. The larger box plate structure gives this tube low microphonics and silky smooth sonics. Some of the Philips Holland versions had the rare pinched waist, where the glass dips inward and actually molds around the top mica plate, giving the plates extra support and virtually eliminating microphonics. Since this tube has a much higher Gm and Mu factor than a 12AU7, the gain is going to be greater and this tube will give a more forward presentation. Awesome in phase splitter applications. If in doubt, check with your amp or preamp manufacturer to see if this tube will work OK in your application. This tube is also about twice as tall as a 12AU7, so installation space in your chassis is a consideration as well. These are out of production, rare, and getting very hard to find.

B749:This is made by Genalex (Marconi-Osram Valve Co. of England) and is extremely rare in the USA. The B749 is in the "Gold Lion" series of audiophile tubes, and has the gold lion and gold script on the glass. Inside it looks similar to a Mullard 12AU7, and has a red Genalex decal across the bottom. These are said to sound the best of all 12AU7 types, and this reputation, coupled with it's overall scarcity, has driven the market price of this prize tube to extreme heights. Worth seeking out as these may be the first out-of-production classic European tube to go totally extinct over the next dozen years or so.

OK, SO TELL ME HOW THEY SOUND!!

A tough question if there ever was one! The best advice is to get a few types and hear for yourself the good sounds you have been missing. All of these vintage tubes are excellent, much better than the Russian or Chinese yuck that is being made today. When replacing any stock Russian, Chinese, or East Europe tube with any of these vintage NOS types, you will notice immediately that the midrange glare is gone. Gone too is that honky, boxy quality, and the tiring upper midrange screech that current production tubes are famous for. Here are some VERY GENERAL observations about some of these vintage tubes:

TELEFUNKEN, SIEMENS, VALVO, LORENZ, and other German made NOS: These tubes are usually characterized by an impressive open "air" at the top end. The soundstage is large, even in mono applications these tubes have a great 3-D image. The midrange is ruler flat, and the bass is tight and accurate. For phono grade and critical high gain applications, the Siemens Nickel Plate and the Telefunken smoothplate or ECC802S are awesome. These tubes have a fine sense of dynamics, and most are impressively quiet. These are not "warm" tubes, and to some ears their lack of midrange warmth may be heard as bright. I tend to think of them as accurate, and their clean, focused sonic image is astonishing. My personal favorites.

AMPEREX, PHILIPS, MAZDA and other Holland/France/Belgium made NOS: These tubes are a great balance of a clean, airy top end, nice midrange warmth, and accurate bass. They are very pleasant, clean, and musical to listen to in hi-fi applications. Unlike other clean European tubes, these break-up impressively when overdriven in a guitar amp. The rare longplate versions are the same, but with even more soundstage space and detail. The Mazda adds a nice bit of dynamic punch to the sound.

MULLARD, GENALEX, BRIMAR, and other British made NOS: Like a warm British jacket of the finest tweed, these glorious tubes have an attractive sweet warmth in their midrange and lower regions. The top end is silky and pleasant, without being rolled-off. The best of these tubes retain a fine sense of "air" at the top, and the upper midrange is smooth and liquid. These tubes reproduce the human voice, especially female voices, with haunting realism. The rare longplates and Genalex versions have an eye-popping huge soundstage, razor sharp focus and detail, and an uncolored top end while retaining the warmth of the lower priced versions.

RCA, RAYTHEON, GE, SYLVANIA, and other USA made NOS: This group is very diverse. The RCA, Raytheon, and Sylvania blackplates are among the best here. These are very musical tubes with air and sparkle at the top end, warmth in the mids, and great bass. The RCA are drop dead beautiful in guitar amps, even the lower priced greyplate and longplate versions. They also have a wonderful "phat" gritty sound when overdriven in these amps. Check out the RCA cleartops, they are a knockout at their current price, about half that of a NOS European tube! The blackplates and most tubes made for organs are very quiet. The greyplate GE is an all-around nice-guy tube to listen to, the 5814A here possibly getting the nod for hi-fi use. The Sylvania greyplate and military versions are clean and a bit bright, but the 5814A versions are very accurate. The RCA 5814A is more like the Mullard, with a rich warmth and wide bandwidth. Currently, the USA made tubes are a nice surprise with their low prices as compared to the European types.

Click here for a printable order form. Use your "back" button to return to this page.

Edit: Tilrettet af moderator /Virious

Tak for forklaringen, godt med et lille overblik.

Han har truffet sin beslutning og bestilt disse: http://pyndtshop.dk/product_info.php?cPath=58_48&products_id =610

Held og lykke med tube rolling'en. Men bemærk lige at der sidder et sæt opamps i den, og det er sandsynligvis dem der har den lidt rå lydkarakteristik. Skift dem til bedre, det vil garanteret flytte bjerge.

kappen skrev: Tak for forklaringen, godt med et lille overblik. Han har truffet sin beslutning og bestilt disse: http://pyndtshop.dk/product_info.php?cPath=58_48&products_id =610

Ganske sikkert et udmærket valg, selv om Mullards helst skal være produceret i Blackburn

Den du selv pegede på først, er min personlige favorit.

Jeg benytter Philips E80CC SQ i min Dynaco ...,

det vel nok det bedste noval rør som jeg har hørt,

bla. en mærkant bedre bund og nedre mellemtone end hos de alm. "korte" ECC rør,

Tfk. ECC82 & ECC83 er langt fra i samme høje kvalitet både mht. mekanisk & sonisk ydelse,  

kortsagt E80CC er i sin egen klasse

__________________
Fort Lauderdale, Florida

Nu har han modtaget og monteret røret og der kommer ingen lyd ud af den. Nogle særlige ting man skal være opmærksom på
når man skifter rør?

Jeg ville checke rørsoklen og lodningerne heromkring - desuden ville jeg checke, om soklens "huller" sidder stramt nok om benene på det nye rør. (er de rene osv.) Pas på - mulig høj spænding!

Da det gamle rør er blevet taget ud kan det være, at der er blevet vrikket og rokket lidt- og dette kan ødelægge en svag lodning i /ved soklen.

Vh

Freddy

STOP STOP......
Sluk strømmen og pil røret ud, før du ødelægger noget !.
Dit problem skyldes at benforbindelserne på rørerne ikke er de samme !.

Såvidt jeg ved, så sidder der et 12AU7 (ECC82) i Dynavox TPR 2.
Det rør du linker til - som din kammerat har købt, er et E182CC - hvor benforbindelserne er anderledes.

E182CC blev lanceret som en kvalitetsudgave af E82CC, som var en bedre udgave af ECC82.
Men benforbindelserne er altså anderledes.
Datablade og benforbindelser kan du finde på denne side:
http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0432.htm   (E182CC)
(Det er endda nævnt på den side at benforbindelser er anderledes end ECC82).
http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0049.htm  (ECC82)

http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aam0051.htm (12AU7 = ECC82)

Håber ikke du har fået ødelagt noget.

ja - det! Godt at det blev opdaget. Jeg gik ud fra, at der var blevet indkøbt et nyt tilsvarende rør.

Sluk og bed!  Hvordan kunne dette dog ske?

Vh

Freddy

ML_CLS skrev: Jeg benytter Philips E80CC SQ i min Dynaco ..., det vel nok det bedste noval rør som jeg har hørt, bla. en mærkant bedre bund og nedre mellemtone end hos de alm. "korte" ECC rør, Tfk. ECC82 & ECC83 er langt fra i samme høje kvalitet både mht. mekanisk & sonisk ydelse,   kortsagt E80CC er i sin egen klasse

Det kan høres ud som du bruger disse rør om hverandre på den samme plassering? Det er totalt forskællige rør som er ment at bruges til forskællige arbeidsopgaver.

Puma

Selv om det er forkært pinout behøver ikke nogen skade ha skjedd. Men det er jo en god lærestreg, man skal være sikker på at de rørene man propper i er ekvivalente eller nær ekvivalente, i aller minste fall har samme pinout. Har han prøvd den igen med de originale rør der sad i?

Ellers er jeg enig i noe av det der er sagt tidligere. En så billig phonoforsterker vil nok nyde godt af nogle bedre opamps og andre stumper før man bruger penger på dyre NOS rør. Kender han noen der kan modde den lidt for han?

Puma

E182CC er et computerrør, og har intet med ECC82/E82CC at gøre. Det er lavet som en forbedret udgave af det amerikanske 5687, og har derfor samme benforbindelser som det. Selvom hverken E182CC eller 5687 er udviklet til lydbrug, er begge glimrende til formålet. Men ikke i forstærkere lavet til ECC82

Men som andre har forslået - prøv med det originale rør igen. Det er ikke sikkert der er gået noget i stykker.

Venlig hilsen

Mikkel C. Simonsen

Som Homer Simpson ville sige "Doh!". Hvordan det lykkedes ham at købe det forkerte rør må du lige spørge ham om.

eggers skrev: Som Homer Simpson ville sige "Doh!". Hvordan det lykkedes ham at købe det forkerte rør må du lige spørge ham om.

De heder nesten det samme, det må være det der er gået galt. Vi får håbe det har gået godt, og han gøre det nok kun denne ene gang

Puma

Nightpuma skrev: ML_CLS skrev: Jeg benytter Philips E80CC SQ i min Dynaco ..., det vel nok det bedste noval rør som jeg har hørt, bla. en mærkant bedre bund og nedre mellemtone end hos de alm. "korte" ECC rør, Tfk. ECC82 & ECC83 er langt fra i samme høje kvalitet både mht. mekanisk & sonisk ydelse,   kortsagt E80CC er i sin egen klasse Det kan høres ud som du bruger disse rør om hverandre på den samme plassering? Det er totalt forskællige rør som er ment at bruges til forskællige arbeidsopgaver. Puma

Sort snak ...du aner ikke hvad du taler om

hvis du havde været så vidende ?

så havde du "råbt op" om, at E80CC trækker den dobbelte glødestrøm af et ECC8x

__________________
Fort Lauderdale, Florida